Doubting Thomas or… Faithful Thomas?

The story of Jesus appearing to the disciples in Thomas' absence, then later showing Thomas his crucifixion wounds is read every single year on the Sunday after Easter. But this familiar text is often read with some presuppositions. Join Pastor Katie, Keith and David as they dive into the text and peel back some of the layers of this impactful story of post-resurrection appearances. 

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Scripture quotations from the COMMON ENGLISH BIBLE. © Copyright 2011 COMMON ENGLISH BIBLE. All rights reserved. Used by permission.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

And welcome. We are back to our standard mode of operation for facets of faith now that we are squarely in the season of Easter. We are back at the table with David, Keith, and myself, Pastor Katie, and we are excited to have you back with us too. Today we are looking at the story of the doubting Thomas, so to speak. This story is heard every single year in the church, but we're going to break it open for you, hopefully in new ways, hopefully ways that will encourage you to find the depth in the poetry of the story, and hopefully in ways that will make you question that title, Doubting Thomas.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

It was still the first day of the week. That evening, while the disciples were behind closed doors, because they were afraid of the Jewish authorities, Jesus came and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you. And after he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. While the disciples saw the Lord, they were filled with joy. Jesus said to them again, Peace be with you. As the Father sent me, so I'm sending you. Then he breathed on them and said, Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you don't forgive them, they aren't forgiven. Thomas, the one called Didymus, one of the twelve, wasn't with the disciples when Jesus came. The other disciples told him, We've seen the Lord. But he replied, Unless I see the nail marks in his hands, put my finger in the wounds left by his nails, and put my hand into his side, I won't believe. After eight days, his disciples were again in the house, and Thomas was with them. Even though the doors were locked, Jesus entered and stood among them. He said, Peace be with you. Then he said to Thomas, Put your finger here. Look at my hands. Put your hand into my side. No more disbelief. Believe. Thomas responded to Jesus, My Lord and my God. Jesus replied, Do you believe because you see me? Happy are those who don't see and yet believe. Then Jesus did many other miraculous signs in his disciples' presence, signs that aren't recorded in this scroll. But these things are written so that you will believe that Jesus is the Christ, God's Son, and that believing you will have life in his name.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Thank you. So for those of you who were following along throughout our Holy Week journey through John, this picks up actually right after our the completion of the Easter reading from John. So right before this, we have Mary going to the empty tomb, we have her finding Jesus, and then we have her returning to the disciples, proclaiming, I have seen the Lord. And then this happens that night. So this would be the night after the resurrection or the evening following the resurrection. So we're talking less than 24 hours post-resurrection, Jesus appears to the disciples. And that's where we're picking up this story, just to give ourselves a little context. This story, I think, is another one that is well known, even if not specifically, at least colloquially, partially because we read this literally every single year on the Sunday after Easter. ABC doesn't matter what the gospel reading is on Easter, we read John 20, 19 to 31, the Sunday after Easter, without fail. And so because of that, I think sometimes we hear things that we've just assumed are there, and we don't always pause to reflect and see what the text is actually saying. So I am excited for this conversation to see how we can break this text apart a little bit and hear it perhaps with some fresh ears in this year.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I always wondered, where was Thomas in the first place? You know, they're all gathered around, you know, praying and and and waiting. And where was he? What was he doing?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

That's one of my favorite questions because ultimately we don't know. But there's so many fun ways to tackle that question, because we could say, oh, you know, he was out buying bread, you know, bread in the groceries. Um, or maybe he was out trying to figure out if the resurrection happened, maybe he went to the tomb himself. I mean, we we don't know. And we typically give him a little shade for not being there at first, but maybe he was being faithful, maybe he was trying to find Jesus or something.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Maybe he was at that point where he wasn't sure if this really was happening. Maybe he was still trying to process all of this.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

He could be, but I always feel like Thomas is a is a strong representation of faithfulness when we see the other instances of him in the gospel, because we see him, um, I don't have the chapter numbers off the top of my head, but if you recall all the way back to Lazarus when Jesus says, Let's go to Bethany, Thomas is the one that jumps up and says, Well, let's go so we can die with him. And then when we get to the um, it's in, I think the final discourse is when Jesus says, I'm going to my father, and Thomas says, Well, we how can we follow you? We don't know the way. Where are you going? And he's the one who's eager to continue that journey. So I I don't know. I have a hard time seeing Thomas being flippant after his declaration of let's go die with Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Well, it's like the society knows this story as doubting Thomas. I mean, like, literally, we have you know put an adjective in front of this person's name as a you know descriptor of who he is, as if that puts him in the box that, oh, that, oh, that guy, yeah, that guy. That's all he's known for. Yeah. Oh, he's the one that doubted Jesus. Right. But here's the reality. When you read the rest of this, because I I used to think that too, like when I was younger, and you just read scripture like a book. But when you don't, when you slow down, you look at things and you like verse 20. After so this is verse 20, before Thomas, so Jesus appears to 11, or I guess 10 disciples, right? Because Judas is now out of picture. After he said this, he showed them his hands in his side. Well, like Thomas just looking for the same treatment. Like, like I want to see the same thing that you all saw. And then nobody gives the 10 disciples that are sitting at the table any any shade. Like, treat me the same way.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Right. Exactly. Thomas just wants the same deal. I can't blame him for that.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Because it doesn't say that he's not believing Jesus, he's not believing his friends, he's not believing the other disciples.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Maybe they maybe he thinks they're playing a joke on him, like that. Whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

But the other ones, they didn't put their hands in his side.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

It doesn't say Thomas did either. Thomas is invited to. Well, where does it say he did it? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:30

Fair enough. Okay, so then the other thing, right? Like, and and I'm just now sort of realizing this. Fresh. After eight days. You know, again, I've read that, I don't know, 52 times, plus however many times I've just read the Bible. Okay, so I'm sure that you're gonna tell me that there's no record. But what were they doing eight days later? Like, there's a part of me that does ask. I mean, Thomas is there, right? Like, so Thomas comes back, he's he's obviously still in fellowship with the disciples because he's there eating dinner eight days later. Where was Jesus from the eight days before to now, and what were the disciples doing between then and now? Is there any significance to eight days? Is this like somehow related to Old Testament um scripture somewhere that I'm I'm not familiar with? It just seems like you know, like I don't know, maybe my mind is like if Thomas was there the next day, Jesus would have just appeared and said, okay, let's get to work. Like, you know, let's get going. You know, why wait eight days?

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, the question would be like, did Thomas only come back after eight days and then Jesus came?

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Maybe, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

You know? Or was Thomas there the whole time after the first appearance? And then eight days later, Jesus finally appeared to him.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Yeah, I those are my questions. And and then what are they doing? I mean, there's this period of, you know, before we transition from followers of Jesus to evangelists, right? Where, you know, like the disciples become spreaders of the good news. What are they doing? Like, what does that transition look like?

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I think I would think that they must have been in hiding. You know, first of all, they're grieving because they've lost the teacher, um, even though Mary and and the others have come back and said, We've seen the Lord, and they must have been hiding because they know the authorities know that these are his people, they don't want to get caught either. So that must have been what they were doing for eight days.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Very well could be. Um, because one way to look at it is um a little bit of theology, a little bit of looking back at Genesis, a little bit of um hearing the story poetically. Uh, because eight days, anytime you've got numbers, there's usually something behind there. Um, whether we know it or not is a different question. But eight days is typically seen as like the beginning of new creation. Because John has a lot of hearkening back to creation in Genesis. And so if you think about it, we've got seven days of creation, and on the eighth day is the new creation. And so frequently we talk about Easter, like the first resurrection appearance to Mary in the garden is happening on the eighth day as the day of new creation, of the new creation in resurrection. And then so maybe this is kind of like a like a like a restart almost of like, and then another eight days later, and let's try this again, because the disciples have done nothing with this, they haven't, they haven't, you know, turned into evangelists yet, they haven't been transformed by this experience. So eight days later, Jesus shows up again, and this time Thomas experiences it, and Thomas responds right away with the my Lord and my God. And then that's when we kind of get to this shift of what's going on, and the disciples become evangelists from that point on. Because on some level, this story also works as John's version of the Pentecost, when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit and they become the apostles, the ones sent out. And this story is also the only time in the Gospel of John that does that the disciples are sent out at all. And so this is that moment of transformation when they turn from being just disciples and learners to being evangelists and who are sent out to proclaim the good news. And so maybe that eight days is this kind of hearkening back to new creation and inviting Thomas into that experience of new creation just as much as the other disciples and Mary were invited into it on some day, on some level when we talk about Sunday morning worship. Sunday morning worship is a mini Easter all the time. Um, and so therefore is a it's an eighth-day celebration, this idea of new creation celebrated within um within Sunday morning worship, and so I think it's all kind of poetically intertwined, if not uh mentally, academically deep. I don't know how to compare it, but okay, so a million-dollar question 2026, whatever 2026.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

2019 years ago, whatever. Whenever Jesus appears and you were Thomas, what do you do? Like put yourself in Thomas's if put yourself. What would you do if you were Thomas? Like, would you do the same thing? Or would you be, or would you have told the disciples on day one, hey, that's great news. I totally believe you.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Me personally, I probably would have been more like Thomas. Yeah. I I need to see, I need to experience. You know, I mean I have faith, but I guess to be honest, I I I I want to have proof. And that would be me. I would be Thomas. Even after all the things that you saw. Yeah, I would. I would. Uh just being totally honest and and just being on the surface, that that that would be it. I'd I'd say, show me more. Show me more.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

And I always, to piggyback on that, I always interpret their their responses here such that where the disciples didn't show that Jesus had come and been among them and had been risen. The disciples were still behind the locked door, the disciples were still hiding, they were not transformed by that experience of Jesus. And so if they're not changed by it, if there's nothing for them to show for that experience, why would Thomas like say, Yeah, I believe you, I'm gonna change my life based off of your witness that you're not responding to, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Yeah, I mean, if I I was a follower and I saw all of the things that Jesus did, you know, heal the blind and uh raise the cure of the lame, raise the dead, and then I saw him killed and died and put to death and buried. I might have been shaken to my core and wondered, was this real?

SPEAKER_00 14:42

And a lot of people have then also taken that as a bit of a um conviction, a bit of a conviction on the church, because like I mentioned earlier, Thomas didn't bel didn't disbelieve Jesus, Thomas disbelieved the disciples. And so we as church, are we living in a way that is transformed by our experience of the holy? And if we're not living as transformed by our baptism, if we're not living into that reality of resurrection, why would people believe us? Now, fortunately, we're not the only ones in the game here. There is also the Holy Spirit, and God's doing a little something, something too. It's not all up to us, but it does kind of turn the mirror back onto ourselves as kind of like the not only how are we responding, are we the first disciples, Thomas, would we believe in the first go-round, but also how are we witnessing when we say we have seen the Lord? How are we witnessing in a way that is compelling to others?

SPEAKER_02 15:50

So that I'm clear, and since this is being recorded, and I need to make sure that everybody who hears this ever in the future of the world, I'm with you, David. I would have been right with you. I didn't ask that question because I feel like I would have answered differently. No, I would be right there with you. No, don't believe it. But I do think that that is that speaks to the just the like the dichotomy of what we're talking about. Like we are now armed with, as current day believers, we are now armed with all of this inherent teaching. I feel like we're almost, I feel like we're born with it almost, right? And so if Jesus, I would have more faith in myself to believe in Jesus if he popped into existence and just walked through those doors right there behind you, and if he said, Hey, I'm Jesus, I'd have a more chance of believing that than I would, whatever, 2,000 years ago when it when he actually did do it. Yeah, I think. And that's odd. Like that's odd to me. That's why I asked the question. It's like you're living in real time, literally watching this guy do all of these things that have never been done by anybody else in the world. And he's obviously teaching from a position of extreme authority. I mean, he knows it's Jesus, he knows what he's talking about, and he's he's unwrapping and unrolling this scripture and a scripture in a way that you've never heard before. Wow. But then, yeah, but then you also have to realize that you're seeing in real time this brutal crucifixion and death that we don't see, right? We just kind of internalize it or watch it on TV, but it's a lot different when you're I guess experiencing things in in real time.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

I guess I have in in my mind, I I have kind of like this split. Um intellectually, I I I should know that. Have I experienced it? I I have to tell you, yes, I have. I have there was a time where I was very prone to migraines and they were extremely bad. And um I ended up with uh viral meningitis at one point. Got to the hospital, was uh becoming decorated because of the the pain and the way I was breathing. And the a priest came in and laid his hands on me, and at that moment I felt something like a charge go through me, and I could not, I couldn't understand what it was, but it was it was it was a healing. And um within a day the meningitis was gone. And I had doctors and student uh doctors coming up to me in the room examining me because they thought there's no way that you know what happened here, and I felt like that that was a personal miracle in my case, and yet I still feel like Thomas is like, okay, I need to be hit over the head with it, you know. But now what?

SPEAKER_02 18:58

What have you done for me lately? Yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

And I think this is a great point in the conversation to remind ourselves that the Gospel of John was not written for the disciples, for the sake of the disciples. The Gospel of John was written for the sake of a community that existed some 60, 70 years later. And so they are at a point where they are being persecuted, they are at a point where they are fearful as a small grassroots community, and they have not seen Jesus. And so this sentence towards the end there where it says, Um, have you believed because you've seen me? Oftentimes we hear that as kind of calling them out, but maybe it's not that. Maybe it is more of an invitation to the modern-day listeners, whether that is modern day of 90 CE or 2026, because then the next phrasing is a very invitational. Blessed are those who have not seen and have yet come to believe. So this community of Johannine people living in 90 CE who have not seen Jesus and are still faithful in their belief, still faithful in their relationship with the risen Christ, they are getting a word of comfort here saying, look, even these guys struggled. Struggling is okay, but blessed are you, uh, favored are you, happy are you, however you want to choose to translate that word, because you know the relationship with Christ, you have experienced Christ's resurrection in your own lives without having seen Jesus physically. Um I always like to offer that as something as an invitation to us today, as opposed to just nagging on the disciples of 2,000 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

It's a source of comfort, I think, because you know we are believers. We and I I admit I'm a believer, yeah. Um do I have those nagging doubts? Sure. I have to be totally honest, but I still believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

And that's um that touches on, so I'm just gonna take that opportunity and run with it, of talking about what is doubt, um, because doubt is a certain point of just uncertainty, um, lack of assuredness, questions, and things like that. And so doubt is frequently given space to exist within scriptures. Um, doubt is not a bad thing. Doubt is a natural reality of human frailty, basically. And so doubt is not antithetical to faith or belief. Doubt is a part of it. And so I like the way the CEB translates this for Thomas. Um, those of you who have heard this scripture reading a number of times probably remember hearing Jesus say to Thomas, do not doubt, but believe. But if you go back to the Greek, sorry, I gotta do a little Greek, if you go Back to the Greek, the word is actually do not be unbelieving or no more disbelief, because it's about belief versus unbelief. And for John, that means it's about relationship with Christ. Because for John, belief is being in relationship with Christ. And so this is an invitation of don't remove yourself from this relationship. Come back into this relationship. And so it's not just about don't have questions. It's about you either are in this relationship or not. Because the word incarnate cannot exist without relationship. You cannot exist in this world without relationship. And so it's an invitation to come back into the relationship with the divine through the word incarnate.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

Well, there was doubt all the way back at the point of Abraham. Oh, yeah. And Sarah. I mean, Sarah didn't believe.

SPEAKER_01 22:51

Well, she left. She said she's gonna have she left. And my age, I'm gonna have a child. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Oh, and Job is all about the knife edge of doubt. And so doubt does not negate belief. I always have the thought process of doubt is a partner in belief.

SPEAKER_02 23:10

Is there a part of is there a part of that, because I I I share similar, I have shared similar, even recently. Like there are there are just times where you have this fleeting moment of man, what if this is really just a giant ruse? Right? And like so there's a part of me that then says, you know, when when I you can you can allow your mind to think and go down that path, but then I feel like that's where other forces start to take over and and make your mind wander into, you know, probably places that then feed into you know disbelief. And and I found that like when I have these those moments of doubt, I kind of say, yeah, that's a funny story. And then I just I just lean back and say, yeah, but that's not really true. Like I my my belief is my belief.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

But it you know, like those doubts will come back and you know, I'll just kind of shoe them away. I don't feel bad about it. It just is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I I think it's it's two sides of the same coin. I mean, you can't it the old saying, yin and yang, or black and white, you know, you can't have experience darkness without seeing light and vice versa. And I think you can't experience faith without having doubt. Right, exactly. I was just saying, and I think that that whenever we we continue to have doubt, that's an opportunity to strengthen faith. Because if if you are in doubt, you want to find something to remediate that. And so diving into the scriptures more, having podcasts like this, or Bible study, or even just prayer, tries to bring you back from that doubt. I mean, I think that doubt is that nagging, the evil one coming saying, doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, doubt, you know. But it's our faith that brings us from that. And it makes it stronger.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah, and you were talking about the um the yin and the yang and whatnot. Think also, you cannot have resurrection without experiencing death. Right. To pull us back into exactly where we are in the gospel story, they could not experience the resurrection power without experiencing the reality of death. And that's why we have that common phrase in the church of you can't preach Easter without Good Friday, and you can't preach Good Friday without Easter, because you need to have both in hand. Um I think this is just speaking to that all over again.

SPEAKER_01 25:31

What do you say to those listeners or the person in the pew who simply says, I don't feel like I've ever experienced that. I haven't experienced Jesus personally.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

So there's an old folk song. Now, I apologize for those of you who think hear this song and you're like, that's not old, but um traditional folk song, shall we say? There we go, okay. Um it's something along the lines of, have you seen Jesus, my Lord? And he's here in plain view. Have either of you guys heard of the song? Um I can't remember all the lines of it, but this idea of Jesus is in plain view, and it's not always in the big miraculous moments that people talk about. Jesus is in plain view when you look at how the water falls to the earth and flowers come up. April showers bring May flowers. Jesus is in view. When you see a child that is smiling or offering a spontaneous hug, and that's Jesus right there to me. Um, and so Jesus shows up in all these tiny little moments of life, of grace, of hope, even when other things in the world might not seem so full of life. So it doesn't have to be a miraculous healing. It doesn't have to be this moment where your jaw just drops and the world stops and you just like, Jesus is here. It can be these little moments too, these little moments of peace that pop up when it feels like peace is impossible. Um if you feel like you have not experienced Jesus, I don't think that that's a reason to say Jesus isn't here. I think it's a reason to say how where are we looking for Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Yeah, I think we need to remind ourselves that we we see Jesus in each other. And if you've experienced that tender moment or that that helpful hand or you know that encouragement, that's Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Well, I hope you enjoyed that conversation about Thomas and the disciples and their first experiences after the resurrection as much as we enjoyed having it. I hope that you heard ways that doubt can feed into faith and the ways that our belief invites us into relationship with Jesus Christ. And I hope your own experience of the resurrected Christ, in whatever big or small way that that might happen, might encourage you and embolden you to go out and say, I have seen the Lord. Let us pray. Almighty God, you are the strength for those who believe and hope for those who doubt. Give us who have not seen faith in you that we may receive the blessing of Christ who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.