Holy Trinity - Our Shared Mission

Join Pastor Katie, Keith, and David as they explore the gospel reading for Holy Trinity Sunday, Matthew 28:16-20. This text is commonly called “The Great Commission,” but what does it have to offer us in today’s world?

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Scripture quotations from the COMMON ENGLISH BIBLE. © Copyright 2011 COMMON ENGLISH BIBLE. All rights reserved. Used by permission.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

So, welcome to our current episode of Fasts of Faith, where Pastor Katie, myself, Keith Cardinal, and David Dreer will be discussing the commissioning of the disciples, where Jesus meets the disciples on a mountain and asks them or commands them to make disciples and baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So this is from Matthew chapter 28. Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus told them to go. When they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted. Jesus came near and spoke to them, I've received all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. Look, I myself will be with you every day until the end of this present age.

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Okay, so nice little short reading. However, this reading is so incredibly dense. There is a lot of ways that we hear about the mission of the church and the way the church functions. There is a lot of references to other texts and readings in Matthew. There is a lot of ways that we understand Trinity, and that is why this is for Holy Trinity Sunday. So there's a ton of stuff we can dig into in these five very short verses. But as always, I'm just curious to see kind of what jumps out at you guys. How have you heard this preached? Or maybe more importantly, how have you heard this in your hearts as you try to live as Christians in your daily lives?

SPEAKER_03 1:54

So I always, you know, whenever I hear this, I think of um the line, um, I will be with you always, even until the end of the world. And sometimes you look around and you think, God, where are you? You know, because there's so much going on in this world, and sometimes you feel like it's either the weight is on your shoulders or you feel like nobody's actually heard this word. I mean, what's happening? What are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to go out to preach the good news if sometimes people just don't even want to listen?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I same thing. I I I myself will be will be with you every day until the end of this present age. So every day I sometimes feel the power of the Holy Spirit influencing my life on certain days more so than other days. Um why you know I'm not suggesting that you know God is not present, it's just what what is why the why the difference? What what what do we need to do differently? Should we look closer? Should we always turn around and say, you know, like, hey, God isn't moving, we're the ones that are moving away? Um, and then present age. That I'm sure has been translated in a couple different ways. What what exactly does that mean? What is Jesus getting at? Is he foreshadowing you know his return? What what does present age mean?

SPEAKER_00 3:32

So I think here it's important to remember where we are in the text. Um, so this is the very final few verses of the Gospel of Matthew, which means Jesus has died, Jesus has risen, and now Jesus is giving some parting words to the disciples. There is no ascension in the Gospel of Matthew. And so this is kind of the send-off, if you will, for the disciples. And so if you're thinking about the disciples figuring out how to be followers of Jesus when Jesus is no longer with them physically, there's probably a lot of angst. There's probably a lot of anxiousness. I mean, we feel that certainly in the present age, as far as looking out at the world and saying there's a lot of suffering, a lot of grief, a lot of pain. Where are you, God? We feel alone in all this, and we have an anxiety to being Christians sometimes because it feels like maybe we're not doing something correctly because we're not alleviating all this pain and suffering. But I think here in this text, Jesus is trying to offer a word of comfort and a word of comfort preemptively. Because Jesus knows that at some point the disciples are going to feel lost, they're going to feel abandoned, they're going to feel lonely, they're going to feel like they're out on a whim, out on a out on a limb by themselves. And so Jesus preemptively is saying, I am always going to be with you. Even when it feels like I'm not, I am. I'm there always and forever. And I think that's a better way to hear that to the end of the present age. Because in the NRSV, which is another version or another translation, it says, Remember, I am with you always, comma, to the end of the age. And so therefore, that to the end of the age becomes just an emphasis on the always. It's like at the end of the Lord's Prayer, a lot of Protestants go, forever and ever. Or if you talk to a small child, forever and ever and ever and ever. I think it's the same kind of thing of this, even when it feels impossible, know that I am with you. Even when the task before you feels unbearable, know that you are not alone in this mission and this call to which you have been invited.

SPEAKER_03 5:43

Yeah, and the admonition to make disciples. Um, you know, it's almost like, well, you know, I just want to live my life. Why do I have to go out and now make disciples too? I mean, can't I just be a good Christian and live my life and let that be the example?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

Can I just get my little Sunday check mark and call it a day? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

And I think a lot of people are probably like that. They said, who, me? No, I'm not, I can't make disciples. What am I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_00 6:10

But that's exactly what it is. Like we are all called, it's not my job as pastor to be the one who is inviting people into relationship with God. It is all of our task to be a part of that community. And um real quick Greek note in the Greek, that word make isn't actually there. It's just go disciple all nations, go disciple others. We don't tend to, in common day vernacular, common day language, we don't tend to use disciple as a verb, but in the Greek it is, and that's no problem. And so if you think of discipling as a verb, discipling is teaching, is coming alongside of, is learning together, is kind of like creating this cohort of learning and following Jesus. And we think of that model also in the church. When we think of older kids helping younger kids or longer-term members helping newer members kind of learn the ropes of church. And so go out into the community. You have been a community in amongst yourselves. Now go take that community, that way of being, into the world and invite others into that sense of that same sense of community and learning and engagement and formation in the faith. So it's not that you have to go and convert a million people because that's not at all what's being called to be here. It's go out, welcome other people into this community that you have known in me, and then do that through teaching them my commandments, which is love God, love neighbor, and then also baptizing them, welcoming them into this family of faith that you have known.

SPEAKER_03 7:45

Yeah, and I like what you said about how it's not just your job. I mean, that's you know, but I think as as a pastor, coming from the the word pastoral, which is like you're the shepherd, you are reminding us, you are giving us the energy, you are teaching us how to invite those people, our friends, our our family, to join us in this this worship, in this community. And so I think that's that's how we are bound together.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, my task is to equip everyone else to go out and to do the work of ministry, and I get to be the one that shepherds and guides and leads and be the um the person who's who is is developed and study and all this stuff. But I can invite someone to church and people just look at me like, of course the pastor wants me to go to church. But if other people say, Let me tell you about this Jesus guy, it it falls differently because it's coming from a point of relationship that's different than a pastor saying that.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah, and I think Keith, you are, since you are the person who oversees the Christian education here, I mean, you do a great job of mentoring those children in our faith formation group to do that kind of a thing. I mean, I've I've seen that here where some children have actually invited their friends and hence their whole family starts coming. And I think that's that's a tremendous um tribute to you and and to what you're you're able to do in terms of pastoring and and shepherding those people. So you are you are discipling, as the verb would be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Yeah, I never thought of it that way. The the word disciple used as as a verb. Um I think about you know, bookending that statement along with the one that you said earlier, Dave, about you know, can't I just live my life? Yeah. Okay, well, the answer is obviously no. That's not what Jesus wants us to, you know, God wants us to do. But I also don't think I'm hearing him say he wants us all to be pastors or or you know whatever, missionaries. So how do we disciple in our daily lives what no matter what we're doing doing, where we where we find ourselves, what our you know, work life looks like, that's the that's gonna be the challenge, right? That's that's the reality. How do we intersect our daily lives and disciple where we see others in those moments? Sometimes it's engaging children, sometimes it's um folks in a grocery store, you know. I feel like we've we've trod this ground before. Um sometimes you just need to, you know, say, as a Christian, right, to go back a couple sessions, you know, as a Christian, this is why I'm buying this box of Fruit Loops or whatever. So again, it opens the door and it gives us the opportunity to, you know, speak from our heart, not as a pastor, but as lay leaders in a congregation.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

Yeah, and I think those of us, I mean, I'm retired now, but those uh you like you're you're still working, other people that are still in the workforce, how you relate to people, your Christian values, I'm sure that that speaks volumes in terms of um uh discipling, because you're living that example of what love and and caring and patience uh that Jesus is trying to teach us all. Yeah, love others.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah. As I have loved you. I mean, that that really is what it comes down to. Um at least in in in my experience, right? That's the it's kind of the big one, right? Because that's how you draw you know folks in. And then of course, you know, we have our own personal relationships with God, um, and that's where the love God with all your heart, mind, and soul comes into you know, comes into play. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

So I want to push back just a little on something you said. You said we are not all pastors, and I think there's something to to reflect on there for a moment, because there's that word and missionaries and that word and all these churchy role words that we toss around. We have different ways of hearing those words. One is the professional capacity, right? Like I am a professional pastor. I've been professionally trained and educated and ordained and all this stuff. And so, yes, there are certain elements of church life that are reserved in the ordained role. That being said, um, the word pastoral shepherding, things like that, like you are a shepherd of the people. Um, and same thing with missionaries. We are all going out and doing the mission of the church. Um, I was listening to a podcast earlier, and it said something along the lines of, I like to remind my people that we are all theologians. Because that's another word that so often has a lot of weight to it. Like you think of theologians and you think of all these big names that are hard to pronounce from ages ago, and they write these dense texts that only people who are masters deep in education can have a hope of understanding. But what is theology? Theology is how we think about God. And I'm I at least certainly hope everyone in the pews is thinking about God in some way or form, and so therefore, you are theologians and you are able to go out and be ministers and shepherd people and care for people and serve people. It's just not in necessarily the same professional ordained capacity, but it is still something to which each of us is called, and that connects to the Lutheran theology or idea, I guess you could call it, of the priesthood of all believers. We are all called to participate in the work of Jesus Christ.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

I certainly allow that pushback.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

I agree. I agree. Oh, fundamentally, I agree, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah. I mean, I did I don't think you were saying that you are not shepherding in any way, shape, or form. I just wanted to make sure that was clear for other people who might be listening to this conversation and might not have the same uh rapport that we do with one another.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Yeah, sometimes we allow the words. I mean, even when you said the the word theologian, um before you were before I understood where you were going with the statement, I was like, wow, that's a like in my head, I'm thinking, man, that's a big churchy word. It's so heavy, right? Like your spine get a little tense.

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Oh, it's like theologian. But when you break it down, ology, the study of theo the the whole religion. I mean, if we're not I think a lot of people forget that they need to constantly study, constantly learn, you know, from cradle to grave. A lot of times, you know, we we stop at some point, whether it's after eighth grade or after twelfth grade or you know, before we get married, you know, um, we we stop and and we forget that you know this is an ongoing thing, this is a lifetime. And um, you know, some of us have to be reminded that that that's what we need to keep on doing. And I think as we grow in faith, as we study scripture, uh, if as we listen to podcasts or go to Bible study, that helps us grow more in our theology.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

Well, that kind of book ends uh verse 17. When they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted. Yeah. I mean, these are the 11 remaining disciples, like the capital D, big big boy disciples. Yeah. But okay, they still doubted? Absolutely they've seen all like this is literally the end of the gospel of Matthew, and they're some of them are still doubting. So I was going to ask about that.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

Well, I was gonna ask about that because I wondered is is were they doubting that this was really Jesus? I mean, he he they watched him die. You know, they they and he hasn't been around. And this is like all of a sudden he's here. Were these were they in doubt this was actually Jesus, or were they in doubt of his message? It could be both.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Well, based on where it's at on the timeline, he hasn't spoken yet, so maybe they just didn't believe it was him. Yeah, they didn't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Couple of comments on that. One is fun another Greek fact number two. Okay. Um the word sum is not in the Greek. Sung? Sum. Oh, sum. So in the Greek, it just says when they saw him, they worshipped and they doubted. And that's it. So the kind of the the context there sometimes suggests that all eleven are doubting. It's not even a little subsect of the people that are doubting. Everyone's doubting now.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

But how can they worship and doubt?

SPEAKER_00 16:40

I mean, that's that's Matthew's thing that's an Matthew loves the imperfect disciple, the disciple who doesn't fully get it, but still participates in it. And that's where we all are, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:54

No, we're like old Peter. They didn't get it for a long time.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Right, but in Matthew, they're all like it. Like they are all doubting the whole time. There's a level of uncertainty, there's a level of confusion, there's a level of I don't know. But through that, I don't know, through that uncertainty, Jesus still calls them and still sends them out to then go and disciple others, which helps us then realize we don't have to be perfect, we don't have to get it all the way, we don't even have to be doubt-free to be able to go and to minister to others and invite them to faith too. So we have the resurrection, and then there's a little interchange between the governor and whatnot. And then it says, Then the disciples went to the mountain where Jesus said to go. They have not seen Jesus post-resurrection in Matthew yet.

SPEAKER_03 17:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:42

And so this is the first time they're seeing him post-resurrection. So yeah, they worship, but at the same time, they're probably thinking, is this too good to be true? Is this really happening? Did we, you know, eat something funny last night? Like, what is happening here? And that's okay. Even in their questions, even in their doubt, Jesus still says, Go. You have everything you need, because I am with you to the end of the age. Go and disciple others. So I think it's that that that word doubt, because the other time worship appears in Matthew, doubt shows up there too. For Matthew, worship and doubt are always linked. And so we can hear that as a word of promise for us that we can doubt, we can have questions, and we can be co-missioned, missioned with Jesus in our work in the church.

SPEAKER_03 18:35

You know, in in today's world, and and the people in the pew, I'm sure, there's I'm sure there are people that are here to worship, but they still doubt. I mean, I read it, I I forget where I read this, but um what the percentage was, but of Lutherans and Catholics and other denominations that believe in the real presence of Christ in in the bread and wine, that there are still a large chunk that say, well, maybe not, you know. And I'm thinking, how can you possibly be doing this and still have doubts?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

That's oh see, I mean, I'm a pastor, right? I preach this stuff day in and day out. The concept of the real presence in the bread and wine is absolutely a sticky point because it's like, but how? Yeah. And as soon as you ask that, but how, that's a little bit of doubt sneaking in. And doubt is not a bad thing in the church. Doubt is a part of faith. Doubt is not antithetical to faith. I would argue the only thing that is the same coin.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Yeah. It's the other side of the same coin.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

I don't think it's even the other side. I think it's just like, you know, you've got one coin with a couple of different pictures on it, like you've got the big old head in the middle and some words. I think it's the little words that are under there. Like it's always a part of it because our human brains have a hard time with full certainty, with this mystery of divine that surrounds us. Because the only thing that's opposite to doubt is certainty. And if we think about it, how many people can honestly say with 1,000% certainty they know exactly what is happening with the divine? I don't think that's possible.

SPEAKER_03 20:08

No, no, not not for our brains.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

No, I mean, as a pastor, I have no problem doubt, no problem sharing that doubts happen. I absolutely have questions and the but hows and the I don't understand God where you are in the mess of the world, and I don't understand how communion works. I don't even understand how baptism works, but I trust that God says I'm gonna show up. I trust God is showing up. And that's where we get that worship and doubt combo.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

And we've said this for a couple of weeks too, that doubt gives us the opportunity to grow in our faith. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah, doubt's a tool. It's not a thing to be feared, it's not a thing to be avoided, not that you can. But I think doubt is natural, and once we recognize that and we're not ashamed of doubt, it can become a very helpful part of our worship process because then we can be authentic and genuine in our relationships with others in this community, which then helps us go and disciple others into this faith because we can meet them where they are in their own questions and their own uncertainties, because we can come alongside them and say, Sing.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

I find it a useful reinforcement tool when doubt does creep into my mind. I'll randomly drive to work or drive home from work and think, see a sunset or something, and think, really? Did God really do all this? You know, or just some random thought, and and it just enters my mind. But then I think, yeah, he can. And I don't necessarily understand it, or maybe I understand it the way that I understand it. Maybe it's right, maybe it's not, but it doesn't, it it it's circular. It winds up pointing back, and I think I've made that statement before. It's it winds up pointing back. Reinforcing the faith is the point, right? So it's okay, again, it's okay to question and say, really? Really? God did all this? Really? Big bang, all that. But circle back around and yes.

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Yeah, I mean, coming back to the communion thing, when we have kids coming for first communion or communion classes or whatever it is, and we try to teach them the practices of communion, I said, I teach, I tell them, we believe that this bread and wine is the real presence of Jesus. Jesus is in with and under these elements. Jesus is really truly present. And I said, why do we believe that? And to listen to the answers they try to come up with. Because even as young children, they know that when you ask them why does this happen, they have to have an explanation. And they try to reason their way through it. They try to come up with these crazy theological schemes of how God works. And then I look at them and I say, you know why? Because Jesus said so. And that's all we got. And there's a trust in that, and we trust that that is true, big T true. But the trust doesn't mean that we don't still, as human beings, try to say, I want to explain it. Because we like to understand things. Even as kids, we want to understand things. We want to take it apart and figure out exactly which moment Jesus comes into the bread and when does Jesus leave the bread. And that's that's that seed of doubt, but the doubt is not eating away at our trust and faith. The doubt is just kind of reminding us, like you said, of coming back to faith and trust and saying, I don't have to understand it.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

My final kind of observation and just the language and the the boldness that I see in this, right? The the completeness of the statement. Um, verse 18, as Jesus came near and spoke to them, I've received all authority in heaven and on earth. Just that statement. That I think appears in, it's kind of mirrored in some um some of Paul's writings. And I just I love that. I am now putting myself in the position of, or not him himself, I have been given, right? I have received. He is he is assuming his rightful place in the cosmos, in all of creation. I have been given, I have res I have received all authority on heaven and on earth. I love that that completeness of that statement.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

It kind of validates in to the apostles who he is and what he's doing and what he's asking them to do. It says, because it's through my authority now that you do this. Go out and baptize and to make disciples or to disciple the verb.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

So Matthew loves mountains, right? Lots and lots of things happen on mountains. Early on in the book of Matthew, we're going back before much of it, all of his ministry, really, Jesus was in the wilderness and he was on a mountaintop. And the tempter or Satan or the adversary, however you wanted to describe that, says to Jesus, I can give you all authority in heaven and on earth. And Jesus says, No, it's not time. And so we have that's the very beginning before he begins his ministry. We go through the entire gospel of Matthew, we get to the end, the last three verses, and Jesus says, I got it. See? I don't have to do it your way, tempter, adversary, Satan. I did it God's way, which is through love and mercy and kindness and justice.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Exactly the opposite.

unknown 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

And when you look at it through that bookend, it's he could have been extremely selfish and accepted, and I'm sure that would have happened. I mean, he could have, right? I mean, he is God after all, and just you know, short-circuited the entire message, or he could be, he could have emptied himself completely, even to the point of death, not to rewrite Paul, and then be given and received the same thing in the end. He did it the right way, and and then set that example for us to follow, which was the point, which is really the point.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

So yeah, I I love that bookend of where does Jesus get his authority from? He gets it through living a life of service and love and mercy. Thank you so much for listening into this conversation of facets of faith. The Great Commission has always been a story that people know but don't always dig into. So we are so glad that you chose to dig into it with us. And we hope that you feel inspired, empowered, and equipped to be in this co-mission, this mission with Jesus, to go out into the world, to learn together with others, and to worship and doubt in our daily lives. Would you please pray with me? God of heaven and earth, before the foundation of the universe and the beginning of time, you are the triune God, author of creation, eternal word of salvation, life-giving spirit of wisdom. Guide us to all truth by your spirit, that we may proclaim all that Christ has revealed and rejoice in the glory He shares with us. Glory and praise to you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, now and forever. Amen. Now, next week we will be doing something very, very different. We are switching gears for this summer, where we will be exploring what it is to worship. What do we do during worship? Why do we do what we do during worship? So we invite you to join us for summer editions of basically worship 101 as we demystify and unveil some of the Lutheran practices of worship. We hope you will continue to join us as we explore the facets of faith in Scripture and in worship.